Doctor Who: The Movie

[00:00:06] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Pugsley Crew Reviews. On this episode, we're going to be talking about the Doctor who movie, which I think is called Doctor who. The movie, it was from 1996 and it features the Dark Paul McGann. I believe Sylvester McCoy is in there briefly, but Paul McGann, who I don't think reprised a role until the 50th anniversary, roughly. [00:00:37] Speaker B: Wasn't it on TV? [00:00:40] Speaker C: Yeah, he's in a heck of a lot of audio plays there. [00:00:45] Speaker A: Those voices there. For those who are wondering, that is Ker 9000, who is returning again after his absent our last episode with Zombievers. And the newest person to the podcast is we invite. Well, I specifically invited Matt on because we tried to get him on my podcast for ages and he's been like, no, but this was about Doctor who and I knew he wouldn't be able to resist. [00:01:19] Speaker B: You threatened my family one too many times. [00:01:25] Speaker A: How are you doing, guys? How are you doing? [00:01:27] Speaker C: Doing well, mate. Thanks. How are you? [00:01:29] Speaker A: Yeah, not too bad. [00:01:32] Speaker B: I was doing all right and then I turned up on this podcast. [00:01:35] Speaker A: It could be worse. You could turn up on the Games podcast, which lasts longer. [00:01:39] Speaker B: Yeah, true. [00:01:42] Speaker A: So something and roundabouts. I forgot the saying all of a sudden. Swings and roundabouts. [00:01:49] Speaker B: Swings, swings. Beds. [00:01:52] Speaker A: I'm very tired. Leave me be, you nasty person. [00:01:55] Speaker B: You okay? I'll be a good boy. [00:02:02] Speaker A: I feel like doom when it comes to talking about the game of the year during another live podcast. Except for I'm not going to fall asleep whilst discussing the game of the year. So let's delve into Doctor who, the movie. It starts off like Doctor who with an intro sequence and then shenanigans in Zoo. Basically the show got canceled in like. [00:02:40] Speaker C: The late Eighty s. Eighty nine, I think. Yeah. [00:02:46] Speaker A: And then nothing happened then until this movie. It wasn't exactly like a return to form, was it? [00:02:52] Speaker B: Let's. [00:02:53] Speaker A: Let's be honest. [00:02:54] Speaker B: No, I like it. [00:02:57] Speaker A: I like it, but it's still not a great film. You know what I mean? I like it, but it's not great. [00:03:07] Speaker B: You know what I mean? [00:03:09] Speaker C: I think I'd beg to differ on that one. [00:03:13] Speaker A: You could beg as much as you like, but you'll still be wrong. Basically, it starts off with some exposition about the master losing all his lives. For those who don't know about Doctor who, Time Lords have 13 regenerations. Now the Doctor has as many as they want because it's fucking stupid. But anyway, the Master was supposed to have been killed on Scarrow by some Daleks, I think. And then the Doctor was taking the. [00:03:52] Speaker B: Master's dashes to his remains. [00:03:56] Speaker A: Yeah, his remains to Gallifrey, which is the planet they are from. Scar is the Daleks Homeworld. But this is why I don't care, right. If he's dead, how does he become a weird CGI snake? [00:04:17] Speaker C: Essentially, the Master's got a long history of avoiding death by cheating, either by stealing bodies or walking around as a zombified corpse. So this is quite in character for him. [00:04:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I get that. With the Master, like, doing a lot of shit previously, but this was supposed to be his last life that had been used by being. [00:04:44] Speaker B: I don't know, he had used his last life a long time ago, technically speaking. I guess you could argue that. Well, his last life depicted in the TV series was probably in, like, 1980 or actually earlier than that. It would have been like, the deadly assassin is probably his last life. The idea is that the walking corpse that he was in that story is effectively the decaying remains of his very last version. And then from that time onwards, he's just cheating, basically stealing a body. I don't know why he can turn into a snake. That's never explained, but that's what he does to keep going. [00:05:35] Speaker A: Goddamn snakes. [00:05:37] Speaker B: Contrast. Well, I mean, he's quite gooey as well, so I guess that's a life force or something. Trying really hard not to point out the obvious, but, Seaman, you said it. All I'm saying is he was tied up by the Daleks and maybe he's just really into SNM and he escaped that way. I mean, I was just going to say that whole intro sequence was an enormous mistake for them to do in terms of making this story and what they were trying to achieve. It was a massive just mistake, really. It's not a good way to try and introduce something for the first Time to a new audience. And it's why the TV series did not do that when they came back ten years later. Anyway. Yes, carry on. [00:06:43] Speaker A: Okay, getting to the movie, Sylvester McCoy's going, oh, shit. Shit is going wrong. He literally says those words. [00:06:54] Speaker B: I wish he had. I wish he'd had more lines, given what he's in. It not. He doesn't really have much to do, which is kind of like one of those mistakes. He probably shouldn't have been in it at all, to be honest. [00:07:08] Speaker C: Well, apparently a lot of the Americans didn't want him in it. They wanted to somehow have Tom Baker in it, because that. [00:07:16] Speaker B: My general understanding is that actually, it was some of the very higher ups at the BBC that wanted somehow to put Tom Baker in it because Tom Baker was the most recognizable person. But it was entirely possible that some of the American higher ups thought the same. But in terms of obviously the people producing and writing and making the film they were very determined that if they wanted the 7th Doctor, they wanted Sylvester McCoy because they wanted it to be a continuation of what was already there. Because actually a lot of the people that worked on it and were writing and producing it were fans. But I know that annoying twat Alan Yentob who was, I think, the BBC One controller at the time he wanted Tom Baker in it because that's where I guess the money was. But that would have just for most people watching it, that would have been Doc Pooh fans that would have just made everything even more of a mess. [00:08:30] Speaker A: So, all right, I do take notes when watching these films. I didn't take a lot with this because I just didn't. [00:08:35] Speaker B: You were just too excited. [00:08:38] Speaker A: Way too. I did. I did genuinely laugh at watching the Doctor. Doctor fucking who? Getting uzied in. [00:08:56] Speaker B: Poor Sylvester. He doesn't get a particularly great start. He just wakes up. Well, he's just dead on the floor when he starts. Basically, Colin Baker goes out by bumping his head on the console that you never see. And then when he dies, he's just gone down, effectively completely randomly. I mean, in theory, it's not really the shooting that kills him. It's what happens in the surgery. [00:09:27] Speaker A: When I was watching the surgery, my thoughts were for a child who likes Doctor who say a child is watching this and they've watched some of the Doctor who stuff. They really like it. They watch this. That scene must have been fucking traumatic with Sylvester McCoy screaming as he's being murdered by a. [00:09:47] Speaker B: Like. It's quite a horrifying sequence, actually. I'm all for that. I just wish that the reason he ends up in hospital was probably more interesting than that. [00:10:02] Speaker C: I do like it as a death. I think if this had continued on as a series, basically being killed by a good woman who was trying her best to save your life who would then become your companion, would make for some great future interactions. She'd have guilt that she'd killed him, but do you know what I mean? [00:10:21] Speaker B: Yeah. There's definitely an arc that could go on there where she feels like she could redeem herself and even she sort of seems to not quite struggle with her own confidence after that. Initially, to do with the pressure in the hospital. She seems quite sure of herself, obviously, that she has encountered some sort of weird alien. [00:10:53] Speaker A: I wonder if that's because there was two hearts and he repeatedly said, yeah, stop, I'm not human. [00:11:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Understandably, though, she may have thought that he was some kind of nut job. Yes. [00:11:08] Speaker A: But when she saw the X rays and stuff, it's like, oh, okay, he was telling the truth. [00:11:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Can I just ask that, how did you two watch it? Because I watched it on the iplayer today. I do have it in a set somewhere, but I just used the iplayer one. It's just that I know that the version that is on the iPlay is the same version, as far as I'm aware. Anyway, that was initially broadcast in the UK in 1996, which means it's actually slightly edited for some violent moments because it was before the watershed over here. And I think there's a little bit missing in the surgery scene where Sylvester McCoy screams more. And I think in the gun section when McCoy's hit Lee's, I don't know, his friends or part of whatever gang he might be part of or whatever, they get gunned down. So if you watch the version on the iPlayer, it's really weird because they just suddenly vanish. You don't see them die, they just disappear. [00:12:24] Speaker A: I watched them die. [00:12:26] Speaker B: You watch them die? [00:12:27] Speaker A: Oh, yes. [00:12:29] Speaker B: Okay. And I also think that later on in the film you get towards the end, there's a bit where one of the characters has their neck broken and I think that gets edited out as well in some versions. [00:12:43] Speaker A: I think Lee had his neck broken at the end and he was like, by the master. [00:12:47] Speaker C: Yeah, no, it's happened, but you don't really see much in the version. [00:12:53] Speaker B: It's implied. Yeah. So I just wanted to sort of point that little bit out because we were talking about how the surgery receiving is already sort of watered down a little bit. So, yeah, it could have been worse. [00:13:11] Speaker A: Bet I saw the worst version. [00:13:18] Speaker B: Well, when I saw this when I was young, I didn't. And I already thought, oh, that's a bit weird. By which I mean, not sure I am enjoying this moment. [00:13:29] Speaker A: It's great though, when Grace. Is that the Doctor's name? Yeah, she's chasing after Lee and she shouts, stop him. The security guard just looks really. [00:13:45] Speaker B: Yeah. For a security guard, I'm only paid to wear the uniform. I don't have to actually do anything. [00:13:54] Speaker A: It's great. Yeah, there's some good moments in the film. [00:13:58] Speaker B: I'm just surprised he wasn't shot down immediately. [00:14:03] Speaker C: Well, yeah. The point where the doctor holds a gun at his own chest. Do you think police nowadays be like, yeah, go on, pal, shoot yourself. [00:14:13] Speaker B: Yeah, all right, mate. Yeah, go ahead. [00:14:15] Speaker A: Probably would have had another gun on him and shot him anyway. I'll help. [00:14:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:25] Speaker A: No offense to any Americans. Listen. [00:14:29] Speaker B: This did give me like a. [00:14:31] Speaker C: Mandela effect or an old man syndrome, though, because I was sure that when I'd originally watched it, it was like New Year's time and it wasn't, was it? When you look, when it was released, it was the middle of 1996. [00:14:45] Speaker A: All right. I thought you meant the setting. I have no idea. [00:14:49] Speaker C: New Year, but I thought it was shown originally New Year. But that's obviously either Mandela effect or faulty brain. Old man syndrome. [00:14:58] Speaker A: I spoke about Mandela effect a lot of times recently to people, and I genuinely believe it's misremembering. [00:15:04] Speaker B: Probably. [00:15:05] Speaker A: Then the information spreads of the misremembering and also parodies get remembered more than the original source they accorded more. And then people think that the original was like that, like in so many things. No, I am your father is like the person's name. I am your father. And then people start saying, Luke, I am your father. And that's not what it is, it's. No, I am your father. [00:15:28] Speaker C: No, I know Fox TV did try and show this when the millennium switched, or they were going to, but then there was a change of plans. So maybe it was shown on some English Channel at that time, just not its first airing, if that makes sense. [00:15:44] Speaker B: Yeah, it wouldn't have been then. Yeah, it was sort of mid, middle of the year someone, I think, because I remember I didn't see it on broadcast, rather annoyingly, as a family, we went away on holiday, just so there I am as a kid. I would have been ten and a half, I think, when this came out. So I was very excited to basically experience my first proper new bit of Doctor who, in a way, and I wasn't going to be there for it, so we had to record it on the timer. And then I went back to it, obviously, later on good old days, setting up your. I know, I know, but at least I didn't come back to find that Graham Norton was talking all over it, so that's a plus. [00:16:42] Speaker A: Lisa didn't come back and see on the Internet by accident. Everyone spoil every second of it for you. [00:16:50] Speaker B: That's true. [00:16:51] Speaker A: And then tell you that it's woke and they never used to be, or some bollocks. [00:16:59] Speaker B: Struggling to think of how this one would be woke even. [00:17:02] Speaker A: They find a reason. There's an Asian kid in here who becomes a good guy at the end and was only helping the master, because he thought the master was being screwed over. I thought the master was a nice guy. They would have said, an Asian person wouldn't do that for some unknown, stupid fucking reason. And thaT's what they try and do, is make Asian people seem nice, because fucking people are mental. [00:17:26] Speaker C: When the Gates refer to the Asian child. [00:17:29] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:30] Speaker C: The woman is like, oh, Bruce, you're so naughty. [00:17:34] Speaker A: Yeah, when I was watching it, because I haven't seen it. I watched it the first time when I was around. [00:17:43] Speaker B: I was going to say, did you watch this when it first came out? [00:17:46] Speaker A: No, the first time I watched it was when I was around 19. So that would have been 2008? [00:17:58] Speaker B: No. All right, so you've already started seeing the new series by that point? [00:18:05] Speaker A: I'm not sure, actually. No, because when the series started of Dottoo, I was like, I got no interest in watching her. And then when it came up and then. [00:18:16] Speaker B: They cast Catherine Tate, and you thought, oh, I have to. No, I have to. [00:18:21] Speaker A: No. Basically, it started Aaron, and I was like, I'm not really interested. And then after, I think. [00:18:32] Speaker B: A little. [00:18:33] Speaker A: While, actually, I'll catch up. And I started catching up on it. And the first episode that I watched before I saw a live episode was the episode where John Barriman was introduced. Captain Jack. [00:18:48] Speaker B: Okay, yeah. [00:18:49] Speaker A: So that was, like, the fourth episode or something stupid. [00:18:53] Speaker B: It's a little bit later in the season. Yeah. [00:18:56] Speaker A: I'm saying the fourth episode is easier. [00:18:58] Speaker B: Okay. [00:19:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I watched that. So I must have been earlier than that. I would have been around 2002. I would have watched it. Not 2008. I would have been fucking, like, 20 something. [00:19:13] Speaker B: 24. But you've not watched it since then? [00:19:20] Speaker A: I haven't watched it since then. And it was funny because I was watching it and I was thinking, I don't know the guy's name who plays the master, but there was a scene where Eric Roberts, he's talking to that nurse, and the one who said, oh, you're so naughty, or whatever she says. And his acting was so, like, weird. I thought, okay, that's really bad acting. But then in the next scene, he's like, yeah, it took a little while to get used to the walking and the talking in this new body. And he was talking Norman. I was like, that's what they were trying to go with, like that. It was a bit awkward for him, know that he was really bad. So that's my fault for presuming. [00:19:59] Speaker C: Yeah, they said crapped on a lot by people for being the master in this. Yeah, but I love him in it. I think he's great. [00:20:10] Speaker B: I'm not so keen, but I will say that during that scene, there's actually one little bit where the master rips off the fingernail and that comes from a kind of plot thread that they didn't end up using, which was that this body, you can kind of see it, but they were going to go further with it. But apparently Roberts didn't want to wear the makeup. His body was going to decay over the course of the story and that was like a remnant of it. He's starting to just fall apart. So he rips off the finger now and then flicks it away. And so by the end, who knows what he would have been like? But he would have obviously decayed further. So I think that would have been quite cool. [00:20:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that would have been cool. Shame that they didn't end up doing that. [00:21:02] Speaker B: We've been interested. [00:21:06] Speaker A: So we're not really that far into the film, actually, considering we've been chatting about it for a. [00:21:11] Speaker B: But no, the regeneration hasn't even happened yet. [00:21:14] Speaker A: Yeah. So basically, we get to the point where Sylvester McCoy is murdered by the surgeon. He then gets put in a refrigerator, the morgue, and he revives whilst the morgue guy is watching Frankenstein. And it's kind of like him regenerating is happening at the same time. I found that regeneration weird only because of the faces that they were both pulling. Yeah, but it was like stretching out their lips all funny. [00:21:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:52] Speaker C: I know people want to reedit other regenerations to look like the current types, but I think this is good looking weird. And it fits because there's a line later where the doctor says that the anesthetic nearly destroyed the regenerative process and that kind of makes this one being a bit weird make sense. [00:22:09] Speaker A: I honestly, as I said to the Mrs. While I was watching the film, I understand why they've done the regenerations now, so they're all uniform, but I prefer the older stuff where every regeneration was diffeRent. It gave it a unique spin of one doctor becoming another. Now, as, oh, the explosion. Things a little bit bigger than the other one, whoopi do. [00:22:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I do miss that slightly. But I do think that there is a kind of attempt with this one. Anyway, it sticks nearer to what was originally being done in the classic series and it focuses more on actually seeing the morphing of one face into another. And this one actually sort of takes it kind of anatomically further, so you can almost imagine and see and feel the bone structure and the skull changing. And I actually really like that. Regeneration for that sort of almost physicality of it. I don't know if you would want to do that every time because it would be a bit freaky. And I also would like to know where. I don't know, two thirds is too much. Maybe a third of McCoy, like, suddenly appears because you don't see his feet. I assume that the height, just his legs get longer as well because McCoy's quite small and McGann's a bit taller. The old. Everyone finds it a bit weird that they change, but I don't know much. How much weight did he lose when he went from conning Baker to Sylvester McCoy? So trying to build that kind of more anatomical regeneration might be a bit weird if you're doing it all the time. But I really like it. I find, like, the Frankenstein stuff is a little bit on the nose for me. It's a bit too know, like, well, he's coming back to life, so we've got to use Frankenstein because of course we do. It's probably just the way it's edited. I like that it's just the guy watching it. But I think it might work a little bit better if it was just kept to the TV screen rather than being footage that is sort of effectively thrown in our faces. It's a little bit too on the nose, but I do really like the sequence. I always have. Yeah, here we go. [00:24:50] Speaker C: I loved the sequence and I loved the Frankenstein connection. And there's a lot of bits in this film where there's like a gothic horror nature to it. Some of the music when this is happening is a bit horrified, but Then they kind of ruined it right near the end for me, when the big mortuary attendant guy faints and there's like a comical Balkan school Power Ranger sort of music. I'm like, no, you had an ace there and you built it up with all this dramatic music and comparing it to Frankenstein and then you had a lame gag that just ruined it. I'd edit that out myself. [00:25:30] Speaker A: I didn't mind her. I didn't notice the music, though. I just noticed him all over. Faint. [00:25:38] Speaker B: The faint. I think when I was watching it today, I felt like it was almost like the faint just happens a little bit too late as well. It's like he's almost just taken enough time to sort of understand what he's seeing and then he faints. It's in a weird way. I'm trying to remember how it looks, but it's almost like the character has almost like two shots of him and then he faints, and it's almost like he should just have the one shot and then faint. There's like a little beat in there that makes the faint, like, a harder sell to me, anyway. That's how I sort of just read it today. It's just a minor thing, but I like the faint. I don't really remember the music for that moment. I will say that the score overall is quite good. There's some really nice bits of music that work really well. There's some other bits which I don't. I think sound a bit too much, I guess, American TV showy, but there's some really strong bits. I particularly like the music during the chase sequence later on, and with the ambulance on the bike, that works really well. It's a nice piece, but, yeah, I like the early part of McGann walking around lost in the hospital with his amnesia. I think that's actually a really effective sequence. And to a certain extent, I kind of think that maybe the film should have started here or dipped the whole regeneration idea completely. [00:27:26] Speaker A: You think it should have started there and then. [00:27:33] Speaker B: I think when Rose happens, like Russell T Davies gets it right in that he introduces the Doctor as a fully formed character and you are treated to him, and then you learn his history over the course of the next few episodes. And I think for a pilot, it's nice for long term fans to see all the continuity and everything, but if you're trying to build a new show effectively, it's the wrong way to start. And I think that's one of the main failings of the TV movie, is that it's almost like, in order to prove that it was Doctor who and in order to get the fans on side, they were so obsessed with getting the links, and then the links are just mainly. Almost like little tidbits of law, they were just trying to get these things in to say, yes, this is Doctor who, and it's still the same thing, but in the process, it sort of shoots them in the foot in terms of actually trying to build a TV series from this, because that was effectively the point, because if you were new and this was the first time you'd seen Doctor who, in that opening montage, you get the Daleks, you get the master, you get Garo, you get Time Lords, you get the idea of Time LOrds having multiple lives, you are introduced, you have a voiceover from a man you've never met, a voiceover from a man you will not meet until a quarter of the way into this episode. The character that you have heard in the montage. Well, the opening section belongs to this person who you are now encountering, who hasn't got that voice because he's not the same man yet. That whole sequence is just baffling to anyone who doesn't know Doctor who is just absolute. And can I just also say, the worst Dalek voices there have ever been. They are awful. I think it's just the director just, I don't know, probably in front of a fan or something. They're atrocious. You've just got this absolute law dump of names, but with absolutely no real context to anything. And none of it means anything to anyone apart from Doctor who fans, which is nice if you're a Doctor who fan, but again, if you're trying to pitch this as a decade later, nearly on from what was happening and to a new market, because obviously it's an American show at this point, effectively, because this show is going to live or die on the basis of whether or not it makes it in America. Because actually, the ratings were really good. Over here, it did well, but in America it didn't. And that's the killer. And that's the reason it ultimately doesn't get picked up, because they spent a million dollars building the TARDIS set. And part of the idea of that was that that's money that they won't have to spend when it gets picked up on the TV. So it's because they have the set already, then, you know, it doesn't happen. [00:30:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:47] Speaker C: It's a bit much to have a regeneration story and a new master story, so it's almost like a double regeneration in one. [00:30:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Like I said, when Rose happens, the Doctor is there and it's kind of implied that he's early on with the stuff with the ears and things. But effectively, it's kind of the same as when unearthly child happens, in that you are introduced to a companion who will. Well, she's not a companion yet, but you are introduced to the human side of it and then the human meets the alien, and then they gradually learn who the alien is. In this, you are basically given so much stuff about the alien with absolutely nothing else to put into context. So unless you already know this stuff, and even then, it might have been like a bit of a struggle for some people to be like, why have the Daleks executed the Master? Why do they have the Master? And why did the Daleks want to give the remains to the Doctor to take to Gallifrey? Don't worry about all of that. There's just so much stuff there that, again, they're so obsessed with just being able to sort of not tick boxes, but almost like that, being able to go, well, we've mentioned the Daleks, mentioned the Master, mentioned Scarrow, mentioned Gallifrey, I think, mentioned the Time Lords, done all this stuff. It's definitely the same. [00:32:18] Speaker A: Why did they execute the Master and want the Doctor to take the Master back to Gallifrey? [00:32:24] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:32:25] Speaker C: I mean, when Daleks ever put anybody on trial, usually it's exterminate. [00:32:34] Speaker B: For show. They could have been doing it for. Yeah, but that's just know. But that, in a nutshell, to me, is like, part of, like, if this story starts with. Even if it's got the master in it, if it starts with Paul McGann waking up in a hospital, or it's grace at work discovering that there is a corpse has gone missing, and it turns out that it's this alien who's come back to life, even if she doesn't understand that he had a previous life, he's just woken up, or he's just a patient with amnesia or whatever, and that becomes the starting point, and then they get to know each other, and then it turns out that there's some shenanigans to do with spacetime and adventure. That's at least a stronger start for an audience to sort of go, okay, there's a mystery to this character, because that's another thing, is that all of that stuff at the beginning kind of immediately tells you stuff about this character and you then don't have to learn these things. And so that mystery is immediately kind of made not redundant, but it's made smaller. And that's a shame, because I think that's one of the big hooks with, obviously, starting a show, is knowing that you're going to learn more as you go on. [00:34:00] Speaker C: Well, there's the one thing this TV movie tried to put in about the Doctor that everybody absolutely kicked off about. And I think you'll know what I mean. [00:34:10] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:11] Speaker C: I think it's about 40 OD minutes into the film where the master declares that the Doctor is half human and the Doctor later comments that he's half human on his mother's side. [00:34:24] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:24] Speaker C: Never really bothered me. I think it had sort of explained the fact that the daughter has this obsession with the human species. But I know there's, like, corners of the fandom that it absolutely sent into a mental disturbance. They hated it. Hated it. And it sort of solid, this whole film for them. [00:34:46] Speaker B: I just thought it was a really weird thing to do and pointless. I don't think it helped matters. I don't think it made it any better. It was a negative to me because it kind of effectively betrays what became before, not in an enormous hissy fit way, because I think it always kind of felt like it was something that could be reckoned or changed whenever they wanted to, because that's kind of how doctor who works anyway. They mostly just make it up on the spot. But it does sting a little bit, because. And I think it's partly tied into the fact that, obviously, because it's being made by an American company and by Americans, and I don't mean this in a racist way, I just mean that because it's such obviously a British thing when it gets taken away and made somewhere else and it's already being sort of moved away from its origins, and then something like that also happens. It probably would have felt more like they're taking it away from us than it might have done. Obviously, if that revelation had happened during the classic one, who knows what people would have made of it? Because obviously, famously, there's the original intention of how the master story was going to end, but then didn't. And most people are in agreement that it's good that that did not happen, even if the reasons it did not happen were that where they were going. [00:36:39] Speaker C: To make the master was his. Died in real life. [00:36:47] Speaker B: Yes, Roger Delgado died in a car accident. And so the planned sort of final confrontation between him and John Pertwee, and I think it was even possibly going to be John Pertwee's last story, they were planning it for the final season, didn't happen. So that could have been. I mean, obviously, that's a slightly different thing because we're talking about the hypothetical change rather than if, I don't know, Peter Davison had just suddenly gone on and one day just gone, oh, I'm actually half human. I don't know how that would have gone down then, compared to in the middle of the 90s, but think it. [00:37:27] Speaker A: Might have been different if it was kind of implied in some way and it was kind of gradual, instead of. [00:37:34] Speaker B: Just going, can we tell you a secret? There were quite a few theories as to why this might not be true. There were quite a few people who would be like, well. Well, he's probably lying. I think there was a theory at the time, because when it's happening, and this is partly linked to another thing that caused a lot of controversy at the time. At that moment in time, it's when the Doctor is kissing Grace. So there was even. I think there was an idea that, well, maybe it looks like that because he's kissing Grace and their DNA is sort of. I don't know, because it's like through the Doctor's eyes and he's seeing Grace's eyes, maybe that's what's doing it. But then obviously later on in the film, he goes, oh, yeah, my mother's side. But he could have just been flippant. Like he does, like, 99.9% of the time he ever name drops anyone famous. He's probably just making it up because that's like my head cannon. When anything doesn't make sense, when he says he's met someone and it turns out later on he's contradicted by something else in law, I just say he's probably just showing off. [00:38:45] Speaker A: Makes sense. I know that the whole half humor there, I was a bit like. Because it just didn't make sense. Is this still canon that he's half human? I can't remember. I'm sure it was mentioned since. [00:38:59] Speaker B: No, it's something that's been. I think I'm trying to remember. But there's been a few casual references to it where. [00:39:07] Speaker A: Well, he can't be half human way. [00:39:09] Speaker C: In a comic book. [00:39:10] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know if it was in an audio. I'm not sure. It's very difficult to keep track of all of this, but I've got a feeling there was something like. It might have been in a comic book, actually, but it was something like. I think the Doctor suggested that it was some trick that the Chameleon circuit was playing, which is really weird, because I don't know why the Chameleon circuit would just suddenly be like, yeah, you know what? I'm a bit bored. I'm just going to pretend that he's half human. This is another little, tiny little. Well, not tiny, but this is the thing that bugs me in the film. I don't understand why they have to use Lee's eye to be able to open the Eye of harmony. I could understand it if the master can't do it himself because he's sort of like possessed by this snakey thing, or he is a snake in a person's body and therefore it won't work. It's not really explained and it does seem really OD to me that the humans have to open the eye of harmony and look into the light. Why would it be them that does this? Why is it locked to a human retina? Is it because the Doctor is half human, is that what it's implying? Or why is this piece of Time Lord technology openable to humans? It does a bit weird. [00:40:35] Speaker A: The thing is, as I was about to say, is he can't be half human because they've made it so that the Doctor comes from some other place now and is actually the reason why the Time Lords can regenerate. [00:40:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:47] Speaker A: So he's not even a Time Lord. [00:40:51] Speaker C: I think that's annoyed people more than the half human thing. [00:40:55] Speaker A: It annoyed me, to be fair. [00:40:58] Speaker B: I think the kiss probably annoyed more. [00:41:00] Speaker A: People, from what I remember, but I didn't really see the point in the kissing. He's like, especially as he kisses her once or twice, and then he's like, bye. [00:41:11] Speaker B: Yeah. To me, I think there are three kisses in it. Not that I counted them. I just want to stress that I didn't sit there and go, one kiss, two kiss. [00:41:23] Speaker A: Definitely did. [00:41:25] Speaker B: I definitely did not. Nor did I look down Grace's top when she was running along. Don't worry, her outfit when she goes to the opera at the beginning is quite. It really does support her well. So there's the first kiss, and that is like this passionate explosion of joy that the Doctor has as he's becoming. He's realizing who he is and he's remembering who he is. Got that great line where he talks about how the shoes suddenly fit him perfectly. It's one of McGann's lovely, beautiful moments that he gets, because he is probably the strongest thing in this film. And he just has this passion and he just kisses her. And that is OD for the Doctor at this point, because he's basically completely asexual. There's hardly anything hints for that, apart from if you go all the way back to William Hartnell, when he's accidentally getting engaged with cocoa drinks and stuff. In the Aztecs, got a granddaughTer. [00:42:37] Speaker A: He was sexual at one. [00:42:41] Speaker B: You know, who knows how that happens in Time Lord society? They probably just fertilize each other with tubes or something. [00:42:52] Speaker A: That Time Lords can change between male and female. Was Susan's parents birthed by the Doctor or the Doctor's wife? [00:43:02] Speaker B: I don't know at this point. And was Susan always a knows? I mean, who knows? And we don't even know, technically, if Susan could ever regenerate. It's never actually confirmed in any way, I think, generally mean, this is part of the problem whereby, because of what's happened recently, it just gets even more messy. But I think it used to be that it was sort of considered that Susan was too young to be a Time Lord. She hadn't graduated and therefore hadn't been allowed to have the powers that Time Lords get. I think that's because there's a kind of a hierarchy that used to exist in that. Time Lords were people who graduated and just normal Gallifreyans were like, they're the Bongans or something, aren't they? Basically the farmers on Gallifrey that live there, which is where the Doctor comes from originally, in theory, and then he goes on to graduate. And then the idea is that, I guess, that that is when they are given the ability to regenerate. At least that was always how I understood it, roughly. And that's why Susan is only ever Susan. And they've never gone back and done anything with that. At least that's how it's roughly explained. The truth is that they've just never really wanted to do anything with her. It's true. Otherwise they would have done. [00:44:33] Speaker A: They did do the audio thing with her back. [00:44:38] Speaker B: She's been back in audio form, but they've never gone. And as far as I'm aware, they've never regenerated Susan. They've never gone, oh, Susan's back and she's voiced by Bob Hoskins, or know. I don't know, it could be anyone. That would be weird, because given the situation within Doctor who and what is potentially possible if she could mean she could come back as. I mean, she could have been played by David Bradley and that would have been really Susan. Could you imagine a TV episode where the Doctor is played by someone as young as Matt Smith? And she goes, well, he goes, and here's my granddaughter. And then David Bradley walks in. Technically, it could be Joel would be. [00:45:28] Speaker A: Better if Matt Smith walked out. Here's my grandson. And David Tennant walks out and he's like, yeah, my name's Susan. [00:45:37] Speaker B: Actually, in fairness, given how many David Tennants there are in Doctor who, I would not put it past them. [00:45:43] Speaker A: BBC, call me up, sign a contract. You can use my idea. How many Easter eggs were in the film? How many Easter eggs were in the film then? [00:45:55] Speaker B: Easter eggs. [00:45:56] Speaker A: Because the only one I recognized with my brief thing was the scarf, obviously. [00:46:02] Speaker B: Yeah, the scarf is the obvious one. Jelly baby. Jelly Babies, yeah. Early on, there is the 900 year old diary on the thing, which is, I think is meant to be. Well, I mean, it's an updated version of, I think it's like the 500 year old diary or something from. Yeah, something like that. So that's a little bit of a reference. Terms of Easter eggs. [00:46:38] Speaker A: Bugger Easter eggs. [00:46:39] Speaker B: One of the things, the sonic is kind of an Easter egg, because that hadn't actually been in the show since the early 80s, because it got killed off. [00:46:49] Speaker A: All right. [00:46:51] Speaker B: Yeah, actually, it's a little bit of a bit of trivia. It's not too well known, but in the scene early on where Sylvester McCoy uses the sonic screwdriver to lock away the spunky master remains, he actually uses the sonic screwdriver the wrong way around. He has it facing towards him. And part of the reason for that is he never had a sonic screwdriver. So when he's there on set, it's probably the first time he's ever had to use one. And no one pointed it out, no one said anything. So I think it's out of focus, but he's got it the wrong way around. [00:47:36] Speaker A: I remember watching Doctor who with you and a few other people with Troughton's, like, oh, look at my sonic screwdriver. And I think it was his last story and it was literally just moving. [00:47:47] Speaker B: A screw like a screwdriver. [00:47:49] Speaker A: Yeah, it was great. [00:47:51] Speaker B: I know. It's in the war games, isn't it? Yeah. He takes apart that gun and then puts it together again to sort of say to someone, look, I can do this stuff without touching it. I must be telling the truth. And now it's bordering on capably, I don't know, setting off a nuke somewhere whenever it needs to. It's mad. [00:48:15] Speaker A: One of the things that is said. [00:48:17] Speaker B: Kind of makes sense that the Doctor has continued to build to it and make it more useful over the years, though, I guess. Yeah. [00:48:25] Speaker A: One of the things that I'm sure they say in the film, when Grayson, the Doctor, talk about the TARDIS, he says it can go to anywhere, like any time, any planet, and I'm sure says any universe. Does that mean any dimension or any universe that ever existed in our universe? [00:48:49] Speaker B: I don't remember him saying universe, if I'm honest. [00:48:54] Speaker A: But definitely did. [00:48:56] Speaker B: He may well have done. I don't remember, but I don't know. It depends on what I guess the writers considered the universe, and universe is to be, in a way, in theory, every time he time travels is going to a different universe, because it's all part of one massive web of changes all the time, isn't it? So every time he changes something, he's effectively creating a new universe? Yeah. I don't really know. [00:49:31] Speaker C: A bit of an Easter egg. Is that when he sat down with his cup of tea and the record player on, he's reading HG Wells, the Time machine, one of the inspirations for Doctor who. [00:49:43] Speaker B: Yeah, that's another one. I'm trying to remember if there's anything else. Probably. Did you get to see the whole. [00:49:59] Speaker C: Motorbike chase to be a sort of callback to the John Pertwee style Doctor? [00:50:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. I'm not sure it's a deliberate thing. I think it's more a case of, we need to do something a bit exciting now. So let's put a chase sequence mean, because it's not as if that's the only. The chase sequences and stuff were not just for Pertweek, they did happen further, but it's obviously, you might know, I've been rewatching the new series and in the Bells of St John, there's that bit where the 11th Doctor takes a bike vertically up the shard. And it is just so much like a John Pertwee moment that this is what John Perturby's doctor would be doing now if they could afford to do it. Mind you, he was flying around in the sky at one point in a car. [00:51:02] Speaker C: When this was first broadcast in England. I'm pretty sure on the end of it, it had a thing about in memory of John Pertwee, because I'm pretty sure he died. [00:51:12] Speaker B: Yeah, he died a week or two before it came out. Yeah, I remember that because I remember just hearing the news and I was massively into my doctor who at that point. At that point, did he go into his caravan? [00:51:34] Speaker C: No. My dad was a manager of a dry cleaning factory and John Pertwee came in with a pair of old curtains and essentially he was asking my dad if he could have them dyed into another colour. And my dad said that they were too wrecked and in too old a condition to die. And John Pertwee asked him what he should do with them and my dad told him that he should go in the TARDIS and fetch them when they were in a state of better appear, apparently. [00:52:02] Speaker B: You didn't find it funny? Yeah, I was just admiring the pun of saying that they were dying, basically, and he was trying to die them. Anyway, we were talking about the kiss and I said that the first kiss was okay because it was this passionate thing, but then there's like a second kiss. [00:52:33] Speaker A: It's like, oh, do that to me again. [00:52:35] Speaker B: Yeah, she's like, do that again. And then you get to the end and they kiss again at the end with all the fireworks and it just feels really forced. It just feels so much like we need to have romance in this, because you have romance in things. This is what's going to appeal to people. And the first kiss, wonderful. If that had been, like, the spark that meant that further on in a potential TV series, they ended up having some sort of relationship and more romance that had developed over a bit of time could have been great, because I actually do think that grace and the Doctor have a lot, that there's really nice chemistry between the two. They bounce off each other really well. And I think the fact that she is a doctor is quite a nice little pun as well. There was definitely potential there for a nice relationship between a doctor and a companion, and possibly a romantic one if it went there. But trying to do it all in that movie, in that way, it just didn't work. [00:53:44] Speaker A: I think that's the problem with movies as well, in some ways. Not enough time. Hour and a half, hour and 20 minutes. You just haven't got time. So a lot of stuff gets stuffed in that. If it was a show or a series of films, they could spread it out a bit. Then again, you could still be watching Lord of the Rings and be bored to shit. Yeah, I said it. Boring. [00:54:08] Speaker B: Yeah, you did say it. [00:54:12] Speaker A: Where were we on the film anyway? Because we got as far as we. [00:54:17] Speaker B: Got to the kiss, but I feel like we may have jumped a little bit to get. [00:54:20] Speaker A: We did, yeah. Because obviously the Doctor was like, who am I? And stuff, because he couldn't remember who he was. He then realized who he was after. [00:54:31] Speaker B: I was just going to say the bit in the car where he pulls the camera out of his chest. That's nice. That's properly grim. And it's also a really good moment because it's just like, holy shit, it's definitely the same guy. It's also a bit weird that, I guess, in a way, that the regeneration hasn't healed that or got rid of it or something. I don't know. Obviously. I don't know how a regeneration would work, but one would assume that if he was riddled to death with bullets, that the bullets would get taken out. [00:55:06] Speaker A: I did like it. I think he said to her, though, and he's in the car, please let take me from here before they try and kill me again. Or something like that. [00:55:15] Speaker B: There is potentially a thread in the story about what they could have done with it, is they could have made it about the potential of humans finding out about an alien that they could experiment on and that they could profit from in some way. That is one of the ways they could have taken that idea and gone in a different direction if they wanted to. And maybe that might have actually been quite a good start for it. And just don't do the master bit Yet. If you were thinking like a TV series and introducing it, the first episode could have know an alien is found in a hospital with amnesia and Grace basically tries to protect him by making sure that they don't discover him. And then America's Secret Service descends on the hospital to try and find this alien. That could have been an interesting first episode, which sets off a series rather than a one and done deal, I guess. [00:56:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Gary, is it? Do you know the hool or the Doctor's half human thing because he's like, because of his retina or something? Is the Master's retina because he's a weird snake spunk inside a human? Or is he trying to say that Time Lords have the kind of eyes he has, the Doctor doesn't, and he's only now noticed it after hundreds of years of trying to fight? [00:56:50] Speaker B: I think the idea is that the Doctor's retina is obviously genetically the same as the humans. How that works exactly, I have no idea. I also don't know what that means in terms of, like, every time he regenerates, because every time he regenerates, his eyes change, that they always humanize. Is it just this particular one that the human part of him has decided? Does he sometimes go around with just a human kidney instead of a Gallophrane kidney, and then when he regenerates, another time he's just got human lungs instead or something? I don't know. [00:57:31] Speaker A: He's got one heart. [00:57:32] Speaker B: Yeah. He's actually, like, most of the time, most of his generations, he's got human testicles, but sometimes he's got Gallifreyan testicles. [00:57:42] Speaker A: And they are much bigger. [00:57:44] Speaker B: And I'm telling you, we've got two testicles. Time Lords. They've got four. We know. Everything doubles for a Time Lord. [00:57:56] Speaker A: They haven't got four arms. [00:58:00] Speaker B: That's what you think. The Chameleon circuit is actually playing a really devilish trick and it's hiding the other arms. [00:58:08] Speaker A: Makes sense. Do you know, one of the things that I said, I'm sure that Grace says to the Doctor, can you regenerate into something? Not who I'm sure he says, I can. [00:58:18] Speaker B: Yes, he does. That is something that he know. And that's another thing, which is a bit OD. [00:58:27] Speaker A: Could he regenerate into, like. I know, thinking more of a sentient creature. Like a Santaran. [00:58:36] Speaker B: More so than. [00:58:38] Speaker A: Which ones are the Santarans again? The potato. [00:58:40] Speaker B: I just had an idea that they might bring David Tennant back to be a chair, but no. [00:58:47] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. I want to see Doctor who. The potato person. [00:58:52] Speaker B: Yes. That would be amusing. I think it was one of the. [00:59:01] Speaker A: Old episodes where they had one of them, and I'm sure you could see all the stitching and stuff on the fake stuff, so it looked really bad. [00:59:13] Speaker B: I don't know which. What, the Sontarans? [00:59:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Like one of the old second series with her. I think maybe the second time they appear. [00:59:24] Speaker B: The Sontarans, in terms of the actual. The heads, they start off really strong and then they just get worse over the course of the series. I think the one in Time Warrior is really good. The one in the Sontaran experiment is pretty good. And then the ones in the invasion of time are not very good. And then the ones in the two Doctors are awful. I think there are points when you can almost see them deflate in a weird way. They just don't look like flesh, they just look like a shell. And it's also, like the most egregious bit where they've got completely different heights as well for a clone race, which I know is sort of inevitable when you've got to put a few of them together. But I think there's, like, one really short one and one really tall one. But anyway. Yeah, they're not in this film, Ped. They know by tracking us. [01:00:24] Speaker A: I know, I'm so sorry. It's just Doctor who's got such a massive history of stuff, it's hard not to get sidetracked. Like, I was going to mention the Five Doctors with a weird alien appears and is, like, murdering Cybermen left, right and center, easily. And I've never heard of that before or after. And the Doctor just runs because it's like super assassin alien robot thing. [01:00:48] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know how much of a rumor it was, but I do remember in series five of the new was there was a rumor that what you're talking about is the Rasten Warrior robot, is that that was what was going to be in the Pandorica, just because for some classic who fans, that's the thing that's considered the most deadly individual thing in the series, because it turns up once and does that and is never seen again. It's a really cool sequence, though. I do love that bit. It does make one Cyberman puke. So that's a great thing. [01:01:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. Let's get back to the film, as we've been running a lot longer than we normally do. So basically, the Doctor is, like, getting his memory back, trying to get in grace. Good Grace, that's what I meant. And then the Master opens the Eye of Harmony. Harmony, yeah, the Eye of Harmony, which. [01:02:08] Speaker B: By the way, at that point, as far as anyone knew, was actually just a black hole somewhere in space. It wasn't on the TARDIS, so that's, like, one bit. Which they just sort of went, we'll just put the Eye of Harmony in the TARDIS. Then it was just like, what? Because the Eye of Harmony is in. I think it's first mentioned in the Three Doctors with Omega, because Omega makes the Eye of Harmony, which is meant to be the power source of the Time Lords. So, yeah, my head cannon for that has always just been that there is one big Eye of Harmony that the Time Lords use, and then each Cardist must have its own little one. And that's just the way I've explained it in my brain. [01:02:54] Speaker A: How do you explain the whole regeneratoration thing happening, even though it doesn't make sense that. Because it doesn't make sense that the Doctor come from a different dimension and all that sort of stuff. [01:03:08] Speaker B: Please stop asking me about this. Can't. [01:03:13] Speaker A: How about you, Kay? What do you think? How much sense does it all make? [01:03:19] Speaker C: I was really hoping that that had all get retconned with the Doctor being a different species and having Lords regenerations, but apparently it's being kept in it. [01:03:33] Speaker B: He's not going to be well. I suspect what's going to happen is more a case of Russell T Davis is just going to ignore. Not. It's not going to get brought up. There might be the OD, tiny little reference to something like, I don't know, like having almost like, an infinite number of faces or something. Because I think he's quite happy to go forward with the potential of Infinite Doctors, because he likes the idea that any version of Doctor who is part of it, that it doesn't matter if it's a short story in a book or a comic strip or an animated thing or whatever, any form of Doctor who story should be kind of part. It should all be included, whether or not it makes any sense or not, it should all feel like any of them are relevant and can be something to someone. And I sort of like that. I think it's good that it doesn't matter if the story necessarily fits into continuity all the time. You just need to make sure that. I think that the mainline TV series and some of the big bits that are linked to it make sense as much as possible within that. If you've got a novel somewhere that contradicts one sentence somewhere, it just gets pointless and anal to sort of start chucking it around. But part of the problem with that is that when something, like really big comes along like that, it does make it very difficult to ignore. And it's not like. I mean, this is the thing we talked about out the half human thing, is that whilst that was quite big at the time, it's effectively just like one line in one story of a show that's been going for nearly 60 years now, whereas that was like a major plot point over the course of a couple of seasons. [01:05:39] Speaker A: One thing I like about this, right, with the eye of Harmony, is they're saying it's making the world go all fucked. And then the Doctor, like, walks through a window. Yeah, right. But that's. [01:05:51] Speaker B: There are some quite nice Mario 64 esque visuals in this. Yeah, there was that. And I can't remember the other thing. [01:06:02] Speaker A: But it's the only time I can think where anything actually happens. They walk around as normal, jump a. [01:06:10] Speaker B: Vehicle, news broadcasts about the weather changing and the tides being high. So there's obviously something. This is one of the things that I'm not so keen on the TV movies. I don't think the plot is very good. It doEsn't really feel like much of a story, for that matter. Here's a thing that happens and then something else needs to happen. And for some reason, the Doctor needs a clock and it has to be this clock. And it just so happens that this clock fits in with this alien time machine. And then even at the end, the conclusion is the Doctor has to just travel back in time to before everything happens. And that's the solution. It's not travel back in time and make something happen or change something, it's just. We just need to travel back in time. [01:07:09] Speaker A: Yeah, that doesn't really make sense. [01:07:12] Speaker B: The plot is a bit. [01:07:14] Speaker A: Yeah, because at the end, the two humans die and they go back in time and they wake up. [01:07:22] Speaker B: It's kind of implied that the TARDIS brings them back to life. [01:07:25] Speaker A: It is, yeah, because it does show. It shows the sparkly Goldie stuff going into them. [01:07:33] Speaker B: Yeah. The eye of Harmony is famously full of archon energy and it just does that to anyone that ever gets dead in the TARDIS all the time. No one ever else. There's never an issue. There's no issues with this happening at all. [01:07:54] Speaker A: Yeah, see, I would like to talk about this a lot more. Doctor who there is, but we are going to have to end soon because we've been going for an hour and ten minutes and the podcast usually lasts for 30. [01:08:05] Speaker B: Well, just break it down into multiple parts and we'll keep talking. [01:08:10] Speaker A: So the Doctor and Grace head towards this time place. I can't remember what it's called to get a clock. Atomic clock, I think. [01:08:21] Speaker C: Beryllium timepiece. [01:08:23] Speaker B: Yeah. It's meant to be like the most accurate clock in the world at that point. [01:08:30] Speaker A: And for some reason that used to fix the TARDIS. I don't know why. Should have just hooked up one of his analog clocks. He had Lords of them. [01:08:44] Speaker B: So I just want him to plug in one with like a little bird that pops out every hour. That's all it needs, because that would just fit in really well with that set. [01:08:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I did like the set in this. It was like an old library with all the books and the box. [01:09:05] Speaker B: I have slightly mixed feelings over it in that. I think it is absolutely beautiful. It is probably the best realized TARDIS set. Still, they spent a lot of money on that set and it shows. I find that it's a little bit too much like obviously meant to be Jules Verney kind of look. It's a little bit too much. The influence is a bit too strong on it. I think it looks gorgeous. I have always really loved the idea that the. The ceiling of the TARDIS becomes the monitor. I love that. And it's such a shame that it's obviously quite an expensive thing to do. But the idea that you could flick a switch and then the ceiling is where they are is just potentially every time that would happen would just be beautiful. I really like the time rotor in the middle as well. That's gorgeous. Still don't know how I feel about the seat of Rathalon and the door. The eye of Harmony room is nice as well. It makes me think of some of the additional rooms that are in, like Logopolis. That's nice. That feels like that done just on a much bigger budget. So what is pedal? [01:10:37] Speaker A: I really like the set. I thought it was very nice. Didn't remind me of weekend of Bernie's. Like you said though. [01:10:44] Speaker B: Yeah, it does seem like it might be a bit of a dangerous place because he seems to be mostly lit by candles and things. And given how often the thing shakes, it's just a fire hazard. [01:10:59] Speaker A: Maybe magic Gallifreyan candles that don't get affected by shaky artists light. It could be fire is different in Gallifrey. [01:11:11] Speaker B: Yes. It's a special type of fire that doesn't spread. [01:11:18] Speaker A: So basically, the Doctor and Grace go to this place. They are trying to outrun the Master and Lee, who are in an ambulance. They are in front of them, but Lee's like, yeah, I know this town better than anyone, and goes a different way and gets there first. This is just after the Doctor holds a gun to himself, says he's going to shoot himself, and the gun's like, hey, don't do that. And then Grace takes the gun and then shoots up the fucking motorbike. [01:11:47] Speaker B: There's a slightly weird bit about this sequence where Grace takes the gun and then they're like, give him the keys, give him the keys. He Takes the keys out of the bike to then give to the doctor, who, presumably, then puts the keys back in the bike. [01:12:09] Speaker A: Good point. [01:12:10] Speaker B: I do like the chase sequence I said earlier. I like the music at this point as well. It's one of those moments where it's strange thinking about it now, but at the time, we really just have never seen Doctor who look like this. It holds up visually pretty damn well from just the production values. Obviously, some of it's a little dated in a few places, especially CGI, but some of the CGI is a bit iffy, some of it's not so bad. I think the snake looks kind of good in the sense that it's like, because it's see through. The fact that it's a bit blurry kind of works in its favor. I'll give you that one. Yeah, but obviously, like, the bit with the glass is a little bit dorky now. It looks just a little bit too comical, a bit too cartoonish, I think, but it's still quite fun. But even just the direction, because of how they shoot it, it's so different to any Doctor who up until that point. And obviously, it looks far more like the new series does in that regard. And in that sense, it obviously holds up really well. And the chase sequence is part of that. You can see that they had a bit more time to actually plot these things out and film this in comparison to how they would have done ten years prior, even back in the sort of heyday of when they were doing action sequences like this on a more regular basis. You know, they weren't doing. They weren't filming it to this degree. You were usually just watching one unit Land Rover drive along a road for five minutes or something, and then a bike would come along or something, and that would be about it. Or they'd insert footage from a James Bond film of helicopters or something, which is something they used to do occasionally, I think. But it does feel like a much bigger production and some of that's the sort of inevitability of being ten years further down the road. And I think, to a certain extent, some of the way they were going about this was kind of how the show should have been going about it a little bit more in the 80s, anyway. It was almost a bit like they were starting to dabble with some of the new technologies that were available and trying to shoot things in slightly different ways. But they probably should have been doing that a little bit earlier. And that's part of why the show started to look more dated in the 80s than it did in the 70s, in a way. Yeah, it's one of these things. It's quite famously that this is off tangent, but they were hoping to do a doctor who film back in the. Basically the cast and I think the production team or some of them, they went and saw Star wars and basically thought, we're never making a film, because they could never hope to do what they were doing. They just knew as soon as they saw it, we're like, no, that's not going to happen. And I think, isn't that what became Doctor who and the scratch man or something? I think there's a story that was, at least on paper, was initially the idea of the film that would have been sort of made towards the end of the 70s or something. I think, yeah, they were just sort of like, even if we chuck everything we feasibly, realistically can do, we're not going to be anywhere near what is happening in something like Star Wars. And then obviously, ten years later, the show still more or less looks the same as it did. So there's a huge jump between survival and the TV movie in that sense, and much less of a jump between the TV movie and then Rose, even though the time differences are not that different. Yeah, that's just an aside. Funny. [01:16:56] Speaker C: Into our survival's got Cheetah Doctor, and then this one's got snake Doctor, not Doctor, Master. Sorry. [01:17:02] Speaker B: Cheetah. Yeah, he's just working his way through the local zoo. He's just like, well, what animal have I got today? Trying to think of any other animals he might have been at any point. [01:17:19] Speaker A: He was definitely a penguin. [01:17:21] Speaker B: He's definitely a penguin. [01:17:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:26] Speaker B: Well, penguins are evil. We did learn this from Wallace and Gromit. So true. Are you suggesting that the penguin in Wallace and Gromit was actually the master? [01:17:36] Speaker A: It was, yeah. [01:17:43] Speaker C: Is the master who's exterminated by the Daleks at the start of this the same master that was in the Sylvester McCoy survival? Or is there an in between? [01:17:58] Speaker B: Don't know for mean. If you take it, you don't see enough of what's going on to not. It's not Anthony Ainley in, you know, he's not turning up for that scene, that's for sure. Not unless they paid him a lot. But I don't know if there's a thing that actually says whether or not. Because I think. No, I'm not sure. I don't really know for sure what happens to Amy's master. I think there might be some slightly different variations, a bit like how Ace has slightly different stories. I think there might be some different ones, because I know that big Finish have done quite a lot with Jeffrey Beaver's version of the Master. And I'm trying to remember if there was even a point where he lost the ability to be the Anthony Amy Master and went back to being skeletor. I'm trying to remember that because there's a fantastic. And I'm just going to say this now, if anyone's listening and they're a Doctor who fan and they want to try audios, the story called Master, which is Seven's Doctor story, is phenomenal. It is so good. I would recommend that to anyone. It's brilliant. Really. Really. It's also got what's his name forgotten his name. Philip Maddock. Philip Maddock. Fantastic actor. Is in a few Doctor who stories. It's such a good story. I'm just saying that now. But because it's Jeffrey Beavers and the 7th Doctor, I don't know if it's meant to be because it's later than the TV series. So I don't know. I don't know. [01:20:10] Speaker C: Just met them out of sequence, which is we don't see a lot, but it's obviously possible in the universe. [01:20:15] Speaker B: Yeah. That's one of the things I was really happy with with the new series in series ten was that we got like a two master story and the idea that the Master could be met out sequence was nice that this could happen, because usually they just follow each other on the same sort of timEline, which obviously is useful, but in reality, if you think about it, it's probably unlikely. But, yeah. [01:20:50] Speaker C: On Humble Bundle at the moment, I thought I'd bring this up because of the connection to Big finish. There's a Doctor who book bundle where some of the money goes to children in need and if you pay about 15 pounds for that, there's a couple of big finish audios, including 10th Doctor Ones, unit Ones, River Song Ones. And I do think, although I prefer watching Doctor who, I do like listening to the big finish and I thought I'd just bring that up because there's a lot of people who might want a taste of it and that'd be a cheap way, seeing as if you buy them one by one, they can be a lot of money. [01:21:27] Speaker B: Yeah, they are quite pricey. [01:21:31] Speaker A: Just a bit. [01:21:32] Speaker C: And Paul McGann does shine in Big. There's not any of his in that bundle, but he does shine in a lot of big finish stuff. I listened to a lot of his Time War stuff and it was great. [01:21:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I've not heard his Time war mean. I said earlier how much Paul McGann is the high point of the TV movie, really. He gives such a wonderful performance very quickly as well. That just makes you wish you could see more of him. Really does. It's one of those weird things where it's kind of like, well, if it had been picked up, would it have just carried on as this sort of mismatch American thing where it never really is particularly great, but he's really good. And then do we not get the new series eventually? Because obviously if it gets picked up on over, but it's kind of this thing where I would still really love it if they could just pull out a spin off just for one season or something and just stuff it on the iPlayer for us, just so that we had more of him on screen. But yeah, his audio stuff. I've heard some of his mainline ones with Charlie, which are lovely, and then kind of like his version of the new series, which is when he's with Lucy Miller, who's played by Sherilyn Smith, and she's absolutely fab. That series really feels like it's pitched somewhere between classic who and new wHo, and then that leads into what some people have heard because I think it even won some awards and things. The Dark Eyes story, which is the first dark Eyes, is absolutely brilliant. It is so good. But it is worth going through the series to get to that point as well. But that's a whole nother thing. [01:23:50] Speaker A: Are they half human eyes? [01:23:54] Speaker B: Well, you'd have to find out. [01:23:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that is true. Think we're going to have to wrap up here because we've been going for nearly hour and a half, but basically the story goes, Doctor and Grace get the clock, they go back to the TARDIS. They stick the clock in the TARDIS, close the Eye of harmony becomes possessed, Grace becomes possessed by the Master. [01:24:22] Speaker B: And then the Master wants to take over the Doctor's body in a non sexual way. Yeah, well, apparently. I mean, we saw the substance he leaves behind earlier, but who knows? But, yeah, you get the Master comes out in his full outfit, always dress. [01:24:45] Speaker C: For the occasion. [01:24:50] Speaker B: And then sort of gradually descends into some sort of weird animal thing. Snarling, really, some sort of modulated voice as well. Then gets blinded by a light and sucked into the Eye of Harmony after. [01:25:05] Speaker A: The Doctor kicks him around a couple of times after Grace gets killed. [01:25:11] Speaker B: That is one of the things that I sort of find with this, is that it doesn't really ever feel like there is a proper clever moment for the Doctor. There isn't really that he survives because he slightly managed to out fight the Master. It doesn't rely on the Doctor's sort of intelligence somewhere. There isn't quite that. Apart from plugging in a clock piece and then saying, we have to travel back in time. Yeah. I don't know. This is what I mean. Can I ask a huge fan of. [01:25:51] Speaker A: The plot, what is the substance all over the security guards? [01:25:56] Speaker B: Did he jizz off? No. Did you notice the bit in the ambulance where. Yeah, I did. Yeah. And he spews something all over Grace. Yeah. It's just more of that. It's less fun. Yeah. Okay, well, he needs those four testicles. [01:26:16] Speaker A: To do that amount. Yeah. You guys are so childish. [01:26:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Anyway, I do like the joke with the bike, by the way, the police bike when it goes into the tuck. Yeah. It makes absolutely no sense because I don't really quite understand why it's still chasing them at that point. I don't really understand why it just goes off. I don't understand why it doesn't stop before it hits the thing. But it's a really good moment. I really like that bit. [01:26:52] Speaker A: I think that is going to be us then, guys. We have been going for 1 hour and 27 minutes as long as the film. Yeah. Is there anything you should have just done? [01:27:04] Speaker B: A commentary. It would have been easier, it would. [01:27:06] Speaker A: Have talked while doing it. But that's a different podcast. And it means setting up all the stuff that I used to have that I don't have anymore. Do you call it? Is there anything you would like to plug, Kerr? [01:27:24] Speaker C: No, not that I could think of. On a Doctor who thing. Basically, all of the Doctor who episodes are on iPlayer. Go and watch them. If you look me up on YouTube, Kerr 9000. I've got a few videos talking about Doctor who, including one talking about the. [01:27:42] Speaker B: Recent. [01:27:47] Speaker C: Child problem you cut out there. Oh, sorry. I've got a video on the recent unearthly Child problem, which is basically why when they've put all the episodes up on iPlayer, you can't watch the first ever story, an earthly Child, and it basically sums up as the son of the author's a dick. [01:28:08] Speaker B: Yeah, roughly speaking, yeah. That's basically, if you want to put it really succinctly. Yeah. [01:28:15] Speaker C: A not case dick might be a better. [01:28:19] Speaker B: Yeah. I think about ten years ago he tried to sue the BBC over the copyright of the TARDIS, because the TARDIS first appears in a story written by his father. It was therefore claiming that he should have the right to the rights of the TARDIS and therefore would have the rights to every time the TARDIS appeared. But obviously they were able to sort of come to a case against that in the sense that obviously a lot of people designed it so it doesn't belong to any one particular person. But it sounds like largely that he's a bit of an asshole. He may well have some kind of realistic right and he obviously has a right legally, to the rights over the story. And it's only right that those people are paid and that these things are respected because that matters. It's just a shame that it seems like his general attitude to the world means that it's unlikely that this situation is going to be resolved anytime soon. [01:29:51] Speaker A: Would you like to plug anything? [01:29:53] Speaker B: Matt Uranus again? There's this Twitch streamer, he's called PED. No, I don't know really. [01:30:10] Speaker A: What about art? [01:30:12] Speaker B: Anywhere where your art is viewable? Not really, no, not at the moment. [01:30:19] Speaker A: Suck, man. [01:30:21] Speaker B: I know I do. I didn't do this for the promotion. I did it because you keep fucking nagging me. Yeah, just don't be lasagna, I guess. Don't be lasagna. Okay. [01:30:41] Speaker A: With that, we are going to say goodbye. [01:30:44] Speaker B: I'm just going to say that for a long time. I completely forgot what this is when I said this to you, is that it's actually what Peter Capaldi says basically as he's regenerating. And I remember thinking, that is such a weird line to just chuck into his regeneration speech. I don't understand why it's there. And it always just sort of detracted me slightly. And it's only now, as I've gone back and rewatched it, I actually realized he's referencing himself from his second ever story, there's a bit where into the Dalek stories where they get shrunk into a Dalek. And the Doctor mentions to Clara that she has to breathe normally, because if she doesn't breathe normally, it's a bit like what happens if you don't pop the film when you microwave a lasagna. So he says, don't be lasagna, as in don't die. So suddenly it just made all this sense. But that's why I did the lasagna in the thread and why I said, don't be lasagna to your pets. Just. [01:31:41] Speaker A: Yeah, makes perfect sense. I'm glad you don't want me to die. Thank you. [01:31:49] Speaker B: I love you. Really. [01:31:51] Speaker A: I know. And that is going to be us. We will be back in a fortnight with another film that will hopefully be picked soon. And for those who are interested in. [01:32:02] Speaker B: Games, Dalek invasion of a 21 50 AD. [01:32:06] Speaker A: If you want to do that, Matt, we can do that. Me and Kirk get together and talk more Doctor who. We'll spend another hour and a half talking about barely any of the actual film. Yep. [01:32:22] Speaker B: Bye. [01:32:22] Speaker A: Bye. Everyone say bye. Bye, guys. Bye bye. [01:32:33] Speaker B: So long. I don't know. Bye. [01:32:39] Speaker C: Live long and prosper. [01:32:40] Speaker A: There'll be a lasagna. [01:32:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:32:46] Speaker A: I don't want to go. Is that another one? [01:32:48] Speaker B: Yeah, that's another one. The moment is being prepared for. [01:32:55] Speaker A: We need the doctor to go, Fah. These thoughts regenerates. [01:33:02] Speaker C: There's a good Sylvester McCoy outtake where he. [01:33:08] Speaker B: Chats. [01:33:08] Speaker C: Why don't you people just fucking stand still? [01:33:14] Speaker B: Yes. [01:33:18] Speaker A: There you go. For those who are listening, why don't you people just fucking stand still? [01:33:23] Speaker B: Bye bye. Could have been Malcolm Tucker. Maybe you're the result of some weird genetic experiment. [01:33:37] Speaker A: I don't think so. [01:33:38] Speaker B: But you have no recollection of family? [01:33:40] Speaker C: No, wait, I remember. I'm with my father. We're lying back in grass. It's a warm Gallifreyan. [01:33:48] Speaker B: Gallifreyan. Gallifrey. Yes. [01:33:51] Speaker C: This must be where I live now. [01:33:52] Speaker B: Where is that? I've never heard of it. What do you remember a meteor storm. [01:33:56] Speaker C: That the sky above us was dancing with? [01:33:58] Speaker B: Light purple, green, brilliant yellow? Yes. What? These shoes, they fit perfectly in a test.